Marvel Mystery Oil with Gasoline Direct Injection Engines to Solve Carbon Build Up on Intake Valves
Posted: 08 December 2010 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Background:

Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) engines are a special breed in that the intake valves never have any fuel sprayed onto them.  The injectors, under high pressure, direct inject fuel into each cylinder while the engine is running.  However, these engines do have PCV and EGR systems and as a result, many GDI engines have been suffering from issues related to carbon build up in the intake manifold and especially on the backs of the intake valves and the valve stems.  In turn this reduces air flow into the engine, with the resulting loss in power, loss in fuel economy and rough idle. 

One way that the manufacturers and the aftermarket is trying to deal with this issue is by using a “catch can” and/or a “heated PCV” to reduce the flow of oil droplets into the intake from the PCV system.  However, it seems that in many cases, these precautions either don’t work or don’t work very well.  Audi, VW and Porsche appear to be having major issues with carbon build-up on the valves in many of their newer GDI engine designs.  For the most part, the accepted “cure” is to pull the intake manifold, and using a combination of scraping and solvents, to manually clean the valves and stems.

Questions:

If one were to inject MMO into the intake manifold on a GDI engine by using something like an Ampco top end oiler unit, would the MMO be effective at dissolving existing prior carbon build up on the valves (keep in mind this is a different use than in older carb or even newer fuel injected engines due to the change in the flow of fuel)?

Similarly, would there be any risk that MMO could make the situation worse and actually begin to form its own layer of carbon on the valves given that there is no fuel passing over the valves to help clean them and wash away the MMO (keep in mind that auto engineers are trying to eliminate the introduction of particulate oil into the intake manifold to solve the carbon build up issue)?

An additional related question is at what temperature does MMO boil off and turn to carbon?  If intake valves run at 300+ degrees would that be a risk factor for MMO worsening the carbon buildup on the valves?

I would very much appreciate a fact based answer from the MMO team in regard to these questions.

Thanks,

ABS99

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Posted: 11 December 2010 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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abs99 - 08 December 2010 02:48 PM

Background:

Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) engines are a special breed in that the intake valves never have any fuel sprayed onto them.  The injectors, under high pressure, direct inject fuel into each cylinder while the engine is running.  However, these engines do have PCV and EGR systems and as a result, many GDI engines have been suffering from issues related to carbon build up in the intake manifold and especially on the backs of the intake valves and the valve stems.  In turn this reduces air flow into the engine, with the resulting loss in power, loss in fuel economy and rough idle. 

One way that the manufacturers and the aftermarket is trying to deal with this issue is by using a “catch can” and/or a “heated PCV” to reduce the flow of oil droplets into the intake from the PCV system.  However, it seems that in many cases, these precautions either don’t work or don’t work very well.  Audi, VW and Porsche appear to be having major issues with carbon build-up on the valves in many of their newer GDI engine designs.  For the most part, the accepted “cure” is to pull the intake manifold, and using a combination of scraping and solvents, to manually clean the valves and stems.

Questions:

If one were to inject MMO into the intake manifold on a GDI engine by using something like an Ampco top end oiler unit, would the MMO be effective at dissolving existing prior carbon build up on the valves (keep in mind this is a different use than in older carb or even newer fuel injected engines due to the change in the flow of fuel)?

Similarly, would there be any risk that MMO could make the situation worse and actually begin to form its own layer of carbon on the valves given that there is no fuel passing over the valves to help clean them and wash away the MMO (keep in mind that auto engineers are trying to eliminate the introduction of particulate oil into the intake manifold to solve the carbon build up issue)?

An additional related question is at what temperature does MMO boil off and turn to carbon?  If intake valves run at 300+ degrees would that be a risk factor for MMO worsening the carbon buildup on the valves?

I would very much appreciate a fact based answer from the MMO team in regard to these questions.

Thanks,
this was in bitoguy
ABS99

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Posted: 13 December 2010 05:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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ABS99-

I can tell by your comments and questions, you have considerable knowledge of intake valve deposit issues.  We clearly understand the issues and have even seen heavy intake manifold deposits on electronic port fuel injected cars as well.  However, what is critical to PFI and GDI is intake valve deposits.  High deposits of carbon or “coke like substances,” cause super heating of the intake valve surface until it seizes or cracks.  To your point, the GDI intake manifolds are only seeing the unburned hydrocarbons from the EGR and volatile oils from the PCV system, all high carbon containing slower burning residues.

Yes, MMO dripped into the intake manifold through a top end oiler will remove these deposits.  It is important not to use more than 3100ppm of MMO for each gallon of fuel that is burned in the combustion chamber (4 oz/10gallons of fuel).  We highly recommend the injection point be after the Mass Flow Sensor.  MMO’s deposit cleaning chemistry is more effective at higher temperatures (300 degrees+ is not an issue).  In high temperatures, it volatilizes and scavenges unburned carbon deposits.  It is well known that MMO keeps intake valves clean in engines and should also work in the intake manifold.  I hope this answers your questions.

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Posted: 16 December 2010 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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MMO - 13 December 2010 05:08 PM

ABS99-

I can tell by your comments and questions, you have considerable knowledge of intake valve deposit issues.  We clearly understand the issues and have even seen heavy intake manifold deposits on electronic port fuel injected cars as well.  However, what is critical to PFI and GDI is intake valve deposits.  High deposits of carbon or “coke like substances,” cause super heating of the intake valve surface until it seizes or cracks.  To your point, the GDI intake manifolds are only seeing the unburned hydrocarbons from the EGR and volatile oils from the PCV system, all high carbon containing slower burning residues.

Yes, MMO dripped into the intake manifold through a top end oiler will remove these deposits.  It is important not to use more than 3100ppm of MMO for each gallon of fuel that is burned in the combustion chamber (4 oz/10gallons of fuel).  We highly recommend the injection point be after the Mass Flow Sensor.  MMO’s deposit cleaning chemistry is more effective at higher temperatures (300 degrees+ is not an issue).  In high temperatures, it volatilizes and scavenges unburned carbon deposits.  It is well known that MMO keeps intake valves clean in engines and should also work in the intake manifold.  I hope this answers your questions.

Thank you for providing me with this detailed response - exactly inline with what I was hoping to learn.  Do you have any before/after results or test results that can be shared regarding the effectiveness of MMO in cleaning the carbon from intake valves on DI engines?  From the comments made, it would appear that Marvel has performed some testing already . . .  Thanks again.

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Posted: 16 December 2010 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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We did conduct engine testing with a major oil company about 10 years ago.  However, the data is confidential as it was completed for research purposes.  I can share with you some of the general findings:  MMO was found to add or provide exceptional intake valve wear protection and deposit control in engines operating under heavy load.  An engine under extreme load will create excessive combustion pressures, heat, and lead to heavy deposit conditions, especially on the intake valves.  With that being said, this is where our confidence is with GDI.  MMO is very effective at lubricating and dissolving deposits in extreme conditions.  I hope this answer helps.  Sorry we can not provide more details.

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Posted: 23 December 2010 02:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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MMO - 16 December 2010 09:26 PM

We did conduct engine testing with a major oil company about 10 years ago.  However, the data is confidential as it was completed for research purposes.  I can share with you some of the general findings:  MMO was found to add or provide exceptional intake valve wear protection and deposit control in engines operating under heavy load.  An engine under extreme load will create excessive combustion pressures, heat, and lead to heavy deposit conditions, especially on the intake valves.  With that being said, this is where our confidence is with GDI.  MMO is very effective at lubricating and dissolving deposits in extreme conditions.  I hope this answer helps.  Sorry we can not provide more details.

This is interesting.  Was the testing performed on a gasoline or diesel engine?  I only ask because I am concerned that MMO may rely on fuel washing the valves to be effective in this context.  If the test was performed on a direct injection diesel engine I would feel more comfortable since that is comparable in many ways to a gasoline direct injection setup.

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Posted: 23 December 2010 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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The engine tests with MMO were done on gasoline port fuel injected engines not GDI.  A Cummins diesel engine was also tested.

MMO does not depend on fuel washing, it has its own solvent system that attracts and attaches to hydrocarbon residues.

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